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[Maris]

If you want to stay home with your kids, stay home with your kids if you can afford to. if you don't want to, go to work and get child care or rely on your husband to tag team. It's all about havinig choices and opportunities. Feminists don't force women into the work force. They create an atmosphere in which women have choices. All the change makers of yesteryear were people who insisted on choice when none existed whether it was the vote, where you sat on the bus, went to school, inherited property, got a divorce, etc. I was lucky enough to have the finances to stay home with my kids. That to me was very "liberating".
Many things in life are more meaningful and rewarding than gainful employment.


In order to have choices, women must be regarded as having equal rights, not as Bip objects or handmaidens. We are not property nor are we "vessels" as Chinese women were regarded. Their in-laws would not even feed them ( they had to bring their own food from their home of origin) before they produced a child. Then they were "claimed" and supported by the man's family. Every step taken away from these dark days was taken with courage, often with women themselves badgering the troulbemakers who wanted change.

[Tesora]

Yes, Maris, I agree with you that women have come a long way from a very bleak past (at least in some parts of the world); however, I'm sure that, for many women in the "liberated" world, the equality they enjoy is really a Pyrrhic victory. Sure they get the thrill of going off to a job every day (and in many cases are discovering just how dull some of those jobs can be) but they still get saddled with most of the other household and child-rearing responsibilities and have an even harder life than did their counterparts in the 50s.

Now, thanks to feminism, we have a world where most families need to have two incomes just to make ends meet and many women (although not all) suffer horrible guilt about having to go off to work each day and leave their children with strangers. How wonderful it is to have such options!!

The point in all of this is that the Italian women are not complaining about their situation. They can have dynamic careers if they wish to, or they can become mothers. They're happy with those choices, by and large, and if they wanted to change it, they most certainly could --- just as women in other countries have.

Maybe they've looked around at the rest of the world and realised they don't have it so bad after all.

[Gloria M]

I remember reading an article a couple of years ago about the large percentage of adult Italian men who still live at home with their parents. I wondered what that might be saying about Italian women. While searching for that one, I came across this interesting article from the Chicago Sun-Times. I thought it might add some spice to this discussion:

Chicago Sun-Times, Mar 20, 2005 by Maureen Jenkins

FLORENCE, Italy -- Since I arrived here six months ago, my family, friends and acquaintances have been curious about life in my adopted country: Don't you get tired of eating pasta every day? Is the weather as cold as Chicago's? Do you really dry your laundry on a clothesline that hangs outside your window?

But hands down, the No. 1 question from women, regardless of age, race or marital status, has got to be, "But what about those Italian MEN??!!" If I had a dollar for every friend who told me to bring them one home as a souvenir, I'd be a wealthy girl.

I guess it makes sense, seeing as the raven-haired, stylishly dressed descendants of Roman gods are legendary the world over. What heterosexual woman, whatever her ethnicity or cultural background, isn't at least a little bit intrigued by the myth of the Italian man, one who can sweep a normally rational female off her feet with the lyrical-sounding salute of "Ciao, bella!"? Women the world over may claim to visit Italy for its leather goods and Renaissance art, but I'll bet an equal number make pilgrimages here secretly hoping to meet a gorgeous Giancarlo, Paolo or Andrea, whether for lifelong love or just a few days of romantic adventure....

Interesting choice of names!

Here's the link to the rest of the article:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... _n13462633

And here's the article about Italian men living at home:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5761647/

--Gloria M

[Maris]

Now, thanks to feminism, we have a world where most families need to have two incomes just to make ends meet and many women (although not all) suffer horrible guilt about having to go off to work each day and leave their children with strangers. How wonderful it is to have such options!!

Feminism has nothing to do with the fact that many famlies need two incomes. It is the economy and the rise in our expectations that has caused that. If you rented your home, had only one car in your family, never took a vacation and didn't send your kids to college - the life of many families in the idyllic fifties - perhaps you would only need one income. In the fifities, healthcare cost my Dad $12.00 a month; I pay $1600.00 ( I am self-employed and run a business) a month for less coverage than I had as a kid. What has feminism got to do with that? - zip!

A lot of misery is the result of poor decisions - not feminism which gives choices - poor decisions as to when and whom to marry, what career to pursue, when to have children and how many, to live far from extended families that can help with child care, sound financial management skills and the avoidance of plastic debt. All this contributes to a difficult life, not feminism. In fact, many of us are not liberated enough to choose the singe life for quite a few years, so anxious are we that we may never get another "chance" to marry and so latch on to a less than ideal mate.

And Italian women complain all the time - at least Italian American women I know and few of the ones I know are married to the "home grown" variety - made in Italy. That attachment thing to the mothers is so true. They don't take their partners seriously, at least not as seriously as their buddies at the club. These are the people they regard as equal. Their wives - they flatter and as yeas go by, avoid. These are patterns and of course there are exceptions. I married into a great ethnic group and my husband shops, cooks, cleans and doesn't have a clue as to why any of that should offend his ego.

Two things in Italy are very different than in the U.S - one the divorce rate is only 10% instead of ours at 50plus %. I think that is because Italy is such a Catholic country that they keep it together. Also, Italians most often have the support of an extended family and when things go wrong as a couple, they have a stronger fabric to support them and get through.

I do not have daughters but my sons have had a tremdous role model - family first, my wife is my partner and put your nose to the grindstone and provide. Life is challenging in any era but few of us would want to go backwards - well, except for healthcare.

[carolina1954]

I just want to step back in to the discussion here.....
Feminism has everything to do with families needing 2 incomes. It's all to do with expectation. The first few women went out to work, got the extra income, could afford the 2 holidays, etc. Then other women thought, mmmm, we'll have a bit of that too, and now we think we need all of that and the market has risen to meet that perceived need. Ready meals, instant this and that, labour saving devices, all cost money, which the woman must now go out and earn, because the man cannot earn it all on his own.

Italian American women complain, you say ? That is where the problem lies, in my opinion. They want the best of both cultures and it doesn't work like that. Same with the men.
My son in law has an Italian father, I can see in him some of the worst Italian traits, like lazyness and expecting to be the boss at home.
His father isn't like that, he is loving, charming, does a lot of things at home and looks great, even at 59 and overweight.

It is nice to have equality, yes, and I think we have it in a lot of ways, but nature has seen fit to design us differently from men and it will always be like that.

[carolina1954]

Gloria, thanks for the links to the articles.

[Tesora]

Now, thanks to feminism, we have a world where most families need to
Two things in Italy are very different than in the U.S - one the divorce rate is only 10% instead of ours at 50plus %. I think that is because Italy is such a Catholic country that they keep it together. Also, Italians most often have the support of an extended family and when things go wrong as a couple, they have a stronger fabric to support them and get through.

This is an interesting debate, and I hope others are finding it interesting as well and not offensive.

I'm no sociologist, but I wonder to what degree the fact that women have more traditional roles in Italy contributes to their lower divorce rate. When a married couple has roles that are well defined and separate spheres of influence, perhaps conflict is thereby reduced.

One thing that feminism has done is make women who choose a traditional role feel as though they are somehow inferior to the "career-woman". Why should a woman choosing to be a mother as her full-time occupation be presumed to be oppressed? Why do we devalue that role so much as women ourselves?

Perhaps the plight of women would be best examined in your own country, where the official maternity leave is only 3 months long (well behind Canada with a one-year mat leave and most European countries). How advanced is that to push women back to work with a nursing newborn at home?

[syl]

It is nice to have equality, yes, and I think we have it in a lot of ways,

I think that this is the point of this discussion. Italian women, according to the article that started this part of the discussion, do not have equality. Women in Italy do not work after they have children because there are no support systems in place ie lack of nurseries, schools that end at noon,few part time jobs etc. If there were support systems in place and a woman decides to stay home, that is choice and equality Women in Italy should be perfectly capable of fighting for these support systems so maybe they are happy with their role. I am not sure that this is the case. An interesting discussion.

[Maris]

Feminism has everything to do with families needing 2 incomes..

Not in this country. What put women in the work force was necessity. It was WWII. Because so many women had to support their families while their husbands were fighting in Europe, they flooded the work force. Eleanor Roosevelt was the first to start day care centers. When the boys came home, women wanted to keep on working. They figured out how to manage family and work issues and they kept on working. Yes, the boost in income felt good but for most, today, it is not for luxuries but necessities. I do feel we come to feel luxury IS necessity to some extent - big, big houses, lawn services, gym memberships etc. but just as many women work for health care while their husbands are self employed. Also, if a women has invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in her education, she feels compelled to use it. Education in U.S. is not free.

I am a professional and never once felt ashamed to be an at-home mon when my kids were little. I felt, in fact, envied by others. On the other hand, if my husband dropped dead, I knew I had the skills to provide - and I do today now that they have grown. I keep getting back to the thing about choices. Choice is good, I cannot see it otherwise.

I think many other countries do a much better job of respecting family values than the US - also a much better job of healthcare. Also most Europeans have four or five weeks standard vacation - the American worker only two to begin with. We are worked to death over here and that has nothing to do with gender. Men are in the same boat.

When I visit Italy I see people who are more relaxed - lots of time off, hanging around piazzas, a nice place to grow old. My relatives tell me - now transplanted here - said they did always gather in the kicthen and at noon around the big family dinner becuase there was nothing else to do and nowhere else to go. Well, they did figure out what to do and where to go - they came here. I tell them I wish I was there and they say only if your a tourist.

[kaycarley]

I totally agree with Tesora's last post. We should all try to look at the position of women in our own countries in a detached way although ,of course, this is quite difficult to do. There are always pressures upon women to behave in a particular way and these pressures are not always obvious.
Sometimes we are told we are being given "choices" when the opposite is true . Demographics and financial systems can be be very persuasive.

[Tesora]

What may ultimately bring about more choice for women in Italy is the cold hard fact that they have one of the lowest birth-rates in the Western world. (Maybe that is because they don't feel that combining motherhood and career is workable, so they opt for no kids.) Even if the women aren't pushing to do anything to change it, perhaps the government will ultimately see that some changes need to be made to encourage women to have babies.

I'm sure that every country and profession could do more to ensure that there are real choices, and we, as women, can do more to value our sisters who choose to be mothers as much as we value those who choose to be in the world of work. Sometimes we are our own worst critics!

[Maris]

Isn't it ironic that Italy has such a low birth rate when it is such a Catholic country. Obviously, the pope is surrounded by people using artificial birth control - or people who are really smart and lucky at the rhythm method.

If religious forces are dismissed in birth control, maybe they are also dismissed in regard to divorce. What is supporting the very low divorce rate - 10% - may be social pressure. It is still very much a no-no while in other countries, divorce is becoming mainstream and so are all the headaches that come from it. Maybe italians have more of a primitive impulse, an instinct, to keep their families together, recognizeing through some sense of collective unconsciousness, how unnatural divorce is on the emotional and economical foundation of a child's life. Whether they're happy, or have a sense of well-being - stuck together by social forces is another matter.

[kaycarley]

It always seems to me that when a Religion is the Established or official or even the major religion of a country people feel less guilt about "cherrypicking2 and ignoring the bits they don't like.
Italian society seems to have been based on the family and even the "clan" or tribe for perhaps thousands of years so i supose it would take some sort of seismic episode to change things in a short time.
I remember reading some time ago that the first Care Homes were appearing in some Italian cities as work commitments meant people could no longer take care of their elderly relatives. This would seem to indicate that some changes are taking place -perhaps below the surface.

[westsiderny]

This would seem to indicate that some changes are taking place -perhaps below the surface.

You just hit the nail on the head! There are many changes that are no precisely published in the newspapers...

From the article Gloria posted, this is a very good advice:

So ladies, visit Italy with open minds, admire the scenery and flirt proudly with its men if you so desire. Just remember that common sense is one thing that shouldn't get lost in translation.

Remember that for Italian men being 'seductive' is some kind of sport... Unless you are really desperate...

[Veronica. O]

This conversation is very interesting. You know I have an African friend and in her culture, the men are the boss of the ouse and ost f the omen stay home. Obviously things are starting to change now but the point I am trying to make is that, when she first got married and her Husband told her to work because they needed extra support, she found it quite disrespectful. The whole point of the example/story is that, some people are happy with their culture or their 'taught' way of life. It seems odd to them to do otherwise. Some Italian women find it tradition for their husbands to boss them around and expect food to be on the table when they arrive from work. Others hate it. But people are happy with their lives and that is all that matter.



By the way, I watched the Bocelli concert with the sopranos and I saw him dance.

[westsiderny]

I'm no sociologist, but I wonder to what degree the fact that women have more traditional roles in Italy contributes to their lower divorce rate.

That's funny. Of course, there is a lower divorce rate in comparison with, let's say, the USA. And why? Because couples in Italy don't get married as easily as here... they live together or have a relationship for years and years... no children (although these days they are having children out of marriage though and that's why there was a proposal for this new law that after certain amount of years of living together (including homosexual couples) in the case of death of one of the partners, the survivor will have the same rights and benefits as married couples. (I don't know if it was approved though).

Divorces are not just because women don't play 'their role' like their mothers or grandmothers did. There is more thant that... Getting a divorce is not pleasant but sometimes it is absolutely necessary. The only thing couples, especially the women, should keep in mind is not to get their children involved in their problems. Unfortunately, this is not always the case.

And regarding of 'who's the boss' in the house, if we are intelligent we can make our husbands to believe that they are. It is not difficult...

[syl]

]

That's funny. Of course, there is a lower divorce rate in comparison with, let's say, the USA. And why? Because couples in Italy don't get married as easily as here... they live together or have a relationship for years and years... no children (although these days they are having children out of marriage though and that's why there was a proposal for this new law that after certain amount of years of living together (including homosexual couples) in the case of death of one of the partners, the survivor will have the same rights and benefits as married couples. (I don't know if it was approved though).

I am confused. Are you talking about this new law being proposed in Italy or the U.S.? By the way, that is the law in Canada. If couples are living together for years before being married that why is the divorce rate high? One would think that there were no surprises if they know each other so well beforehand.

[westsiderny]

I am confused. Are you talking about this new law being proposed in Italy or the U.S.?

In Italy. But there was strong opposition from the 'older' generation.

By the way, that is the law in Canada. If couples are living together for years before being married that why is the divorce rate high? One would think that there were no surprises if they know each other so well beforehand.

The problem is that most of men and women think that marriage means 'ownership', like many parents feel that they 'own' their children and expect them to do whatever they say, even when they are grown ups. Also, for many people marriage usually means getting fat and ugly and sloppy. They forget the good manners and burps and do whatever they have to do in front of their partners, just without any reservations. That will kill any romance and illusion that could exist in the relationship before. Am I right or not? I know few couples that were living together for quite a while but when they got married everything went down the tubes. Not to mention some that live together for many years and break up... usually because the guy found a 'better' partner, or viceversa. I know an Italian guy that after 3 years living with this girlfriend, he realized that she was 'boring' and 'invited' her to leave the house. He started shopping around and found not one but two. It seems that now he has who he thinks is the right one. Will see. I also know another handsome Italian guy that had a girlfriend for 11 years and found out that she was cheating on him with an older guy... now she lives with a very wealthy politician 20 years her senior. She told the younger guy that she still loves him but she has to think about her future... Right! like if he were a 'nobody'. This younger guy also has lots of money... After 11 years... but in Italy is not strange that they last that longer as boyfriend and girlfriend... they usually work in different cities/towns and see each other only on weekends. If it wasn't for their train system, I don't know what would happen...

The world is upside down... Thankfully, I don't have to worry about finding the right partner anymore. I declared myself out-of-order for marriage after 3 marriages and 3 divorces. I never was so happier than now... Too much trouble being married, not to mention too much work! Viva la libertà!!!

[Tesora]

I declared myself out-of-order for marriage after 3 marriages and 3 divorces. I never was so happier than now.

I have to defer to your considerable experience and knowledge on this issue, WSNY. Glad you've found happiness in the long run.

And I totally agree with your earlier comment about keeping the children out of divorce. It can be devastating for children when they're asked to side with one parent or the other.

[westsiderny]

Tesora, I never said I was unhappy! I just felt imprisoned. Too much work!!! It is amazing how things change once you are married... and it is worse when the husband expects the wife to do everything in the house and ask his 'permission' or 'consult' him for everything first...

Look! This is my idea of a happy marriage! Unfortunately, it is not possible most of the time. There is also the jealousy factor...

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... 2/FEATURES

I bet that if I was married now, I wouldn't be able to travel all over to see Andrea or buy all the CDs and DVDs I want, without him telling me to watch the budget, even if I work and have my own money... I don't like partnerships of that kind...

To me, marriage is a full time job! And sometimes the benefits package is not good enough...

And here is the Italian law I was talking above:

http://216.35.221.77/templates/story/st ... d=10158492

[syl]

Thanks for the articles WSNY. They are interesting but I think we are no closer to discovering why the divorce rate is so different between Italy and the U.S. Surely Italians are just as boring or rude to each other in marriage as Americans. Your descriptions were vivid and seem to come from experience. Perhaps the church is still very influential in the attitudes that Italians have toward divorce? Perhaps as you say marriage is a full time job and with fewer women working in Italy after marriage they have more time to devote to the marriage? I am glad that you have decided against any further attempts in the field of marriage. Some women keep buying into the idea that they have to be married to be happy. You obviously know better.

[eleanora]

Interesting articles Westidermy - I'm sorry that you did not find what you wanted/needed in any of your marriages - I'm very glad you are now happy. I agree marriage is hard work but after 27 years I wouldn't trade it nor can I imagine remarrying if/when my husband is gone. Perhaps why there is a lower divorce rate in Italy is that both women and men there have a different expectation of marriage than women in north america - but what do I know, really only my own situation and it is very different even from my sisters marriages - just my two cents worth